TIME Magazine
September 15, 2009
Thursday, Sep. 10, 2009 Exclusive Interview: The Obamas on The Meaning of Public Service By Richard Stengel The following interview took place September 1, 2009 TIME: So this is for our third annual national service issue. And that is a great thing. I remember last year we did one that was the setup for the national service summit that we did with you and Senator McCain. So it’s a year later — The President: Which was very cool. That was a great forum. Yes, it was terrific — and it was in your old stomping grounds. So a lot has changed since then. The Kennedy Serve America Act has been passed, which is fantastic. And we’ve done this enormous national poll about national service, and one of the things that we discovered, and other polls have shown this, too, is that, in fact, volunteering is down as a result of the recession, and civic participation is down. And when we did that last year it was a kind of great moment for us, and since then, the economy has gone down. I’m wondering what you make of that and what you think the significance of that is for national service. The President: Well, I think that people are understandably anxious right now and feeling insecure economically. They are worried about home payments; they’re worried about bills; they’re worried about losing their health care; they’re worried about their 401(k)s and whether or not they’re going to be able to afford to send their kids to college. And so I think that there’s an understandable sense that I really have to take care of home base right now and make sure that I’m doing everything I can to provide security for my family. Now, I would argue that now is exactly the time where we need more volunteerism, not only because needs are greater, more people are hungry, more people are out of work, more people are falling through the cracks, but when I talk to young people, for example, I say to them now is the time to get experience — since you may not be able to find a job right away — get some experience doing some good for your country, and that will not only be in the interest of the people you help, but it’s going to be in your self-interest. You’ll get work experience, you’ll make contacts, you’ll network, you’ll expand your community in a way that ultimately will be good for you. And I think that you’re going to start seeing a lot of young people finding that that makes sense. We were talking the other day to some young lawyers who were still at law school, and they’re not in a position now where it’s easy for them to necessarily to get placed in these law firms, making $150,000 a year, so you’re starting to see more of them now interested potentially in working in public service, working in government, Teach for America — those kinds of options suddenly look a lot more attractive. So I think that the trend will change in the years to come. And by the way, speaking of Teach for America, those applications are up. All of the AmeriCorps programs, those applications are up. One of the things that our poll showed also, and also the National Conference on Citizenship poll about service showed this, too, is that people feel like their neighbors are actually less involved in the community than they used to be; that people are hunkering down, as you say, they’re looking out for their own. How do you make the argument in that kind of environment to people who are saying, like, hey, I’ve lost my job and you’re telling me to volunteer? How does that work? Does it make it a lot more difficult? Mrs. Obama: As the President said, I think that these are challenging times, but one of the things that we’ve talked about and I talk about among my friends is that now is the time to get involved in your church; now is the time to go to your kids’ school and participate as a parent/teacher in your parent/teacher conference. Go on a field trip. There are so many ways within your own community that you can get involved and you can add value to your own self-interest. No matter where you are economically, you’re living in a community — you’ve got kids in the public school system, and we all know that the public schools need as much support as they can get: parents reading to kids, people going on field trips, people monitoring recess. Those are things that you can do if you have time on your hands that add value to your home base. But I think people sometimes have to be reminded of that in times where they feel like, as the President said, things are tough at home. But there are things to do at home that could make your home life better, and a lot of that involves engagement in your own community through volunteerism. And hopefully that continues when the economy turns around, that that doesn’t — that’s not just something that you do when you’re out of work, but it becomes a part of your own culture, engaging in the lives of your kids, participating in Little League games, going to your churches and your synagogues and reading to kids, and on and on and on. So part of what Barack and I have always tried to do is lead by example. We’re trying to do that in our own family, showing our kids that no matter where we are, whether times are good or bad, we have to be thinking about what we do for those of us around us. And what you’ll see us doing more of out of the First Lady’s Office, and what we’re doing throughout the White House is really trying to put those visions in action. That’s why you see us doing service so much. That’s why you see me taking the first week off so that I’m going to my kids’ school. That’s why you see the President going to parent/teacher conferences. And that’s why you’re going to see us working with military families and mentoring young girls in the community. Those are things that we can do today, tomorrow, no matter what our circumstances are. And those are the kind of messages that I think that we have to continue to deliver to others so that they’re reminded of what’s possible even in times of trouble. See TIME’s special report on community service. See pictures of Barack Obama’s nation of hope. In fact, the poll did show that where there has been an uptick is in the most — kind of the local volunteering, right around your home with your local school. So one of the things that came up during this poll, and the story now is going to kind of reflect this idea, is that while volunteering is down, people have changed the way they are consuming. For example, in the past year, record numbers of people bought a green product. Record numbers of people bought a product from a company that shows social responsibility whose values they like. This is really kind of a new thing. And the argument that I’m going to try to make is that this is a new kind of service, a new kind of civic engagement; that people are becoming kind of citizen consumers, and that is related to this idea of service. The President: Well, I think you especially see that in the next generation, even among our daughters. I remember Malia maybe three years ago — she was eight or seven — said, you’ve got to get a hybrid because this is polluting the air and killing polar bears. And you really start seeing, I think, a level of awareness about how decisions you make, about where you shop or what car you drive has an impact on the broader world. And so I think it’s a positive thing. Now, it’s important that that does not replace more traditional notions of volunteering — partly because I think that what service provides is an opportunity for human interaction and relationship-building that is so important to the fabric of our country as a whole. We’ve always had a strong tradition of individualism — “I’m going to make it on my own” — and self-reliance, and that’s one of the most special, precious things about America. But you’ve also had a running thread of community that Alexis de Tocqueville wrote about, and voluntary associations and organizations. And that’s been just as important in creating the bonds of trust and the community infrastructure that means kids are growing up healthy and Little Leagues have coaches, and churches and synagogues and mosques, religious institutions are out in the community and not just focused inward. And I think that’s not only good for the society as a whole — it makes us stronger — but it’s good for individuals because it breaks people out of their isolation. In fact, one of the arguments I’ve made for why people should volunteer now, even though times are tough, is nothing is better to break you out of a funk or your own anxieties than helping somebody else. And I think that we all have a tendency when times are tough to turn inward, but in some ways that can be more isolating. And I think being out there with people, making common cause, helping others, is a way of strengthening your own resolve and improving your own life. Well, in fact, speaking of de Tocqueville, there was that Putnam study from a few years ago about bowling alone. I remember somebody rebutted that by saying, people aren’t bowling alone, they’re playing soccer in groups — you’re not looking at the right kind of examples. Both in terms of volunteerism and this idea of kind of civic consumerism, our polls show that there has been a — for lack of a better term, kind of Obama effect — that includes both of you — and that in some ways you started talking about, early on, this very American idea of doing well by doing good: green industry, the idea that principles and progress are not mutually exclusive. In some way, you’ve both been an endorsement of this and a beneficiary of it. The President: Our campaign was an example. Right. So how — talk about that a little bit — I mean, how you are both kind of cause and effect of this, and you’re also in some ways the great champion of it, of these ideas and values that are changing the way civic society works. The President: Well, look, I think our campaign was an expression of people wanting to be engaged and involved in different ways. They didn’t want to just be passive consumers of political television ads. They wanted to have their voices heard. They wanted to interact with their membership — or with their neighbor and their friends. They wanted to be part of something larger than themselves. And we I think tapped into it in technological terms. But it wasn’t really the technology that was the story. It was that there was this underlying impulse for people to get involved, especially among younger people. I think that how we sustain that is a challenge. How do you — a campaign is a finite moment in time with a very clear objective. Sustaining that so that it now moves forward in ways that aren’t as high-profile and aren’t — where it’s not surrounded by balloons and confetti but has to do more with just the day-to-day work of mentoring a kid or planting a garden — that’s I think the challenge that both of us are continually thinking about. And I think what Michelle has been doing in terms of the community garden and child nutrition is a great example of something that is not as flashy as a political campaign, but it has an opportunity to take root over time and really have an enormous impact on the community. See 21 ways to serve America. See who’s who in Barack Obama’s White House. Mrs Obama: You always have to remind people, even throughout the campaign, that solutions and forward movement on any issue is a multi — requires a multi-pronged approach. You need government, you need individuals, you need strong communities. And sometimes you lose sight that all of those have to be working. You rely too heavily on government to the exclusion of individual responsibility and engagement; individualism takes over community. But they all have to be working in sync. And we’re trying to, through this administration and many of the initiatives that we’ve taking on, in addition to national service — like the President said, the garden is about that individual power; that at the end — we need strong health care reform measures, we need government to act — but how we teach and how we feed our children is a very individual power. But you have to be informed, you have to have choices, you have to have access to food. So these very small steps of planting a garden gets us into the broader discussion that government isn’t always the answer. That’s something that the President said throughout his campaign. But a garden is a part of it. And how we change the way kids think about food is a part of that. Making sure people know that exercise has to be part of their daily lives — that’s a part of it. And that’s not something government can mandate, but it’s within the power of each and every individual. Service is a part of that bigger conversation. So the goal is to continue to hit the ball and to continue to remind one another that they’re all critical to the forward movement and the change that we desperately want and seek. The garden is an incredibly potent symbol. It came up over and over in interviews. And people do see it as something which is a — just a symbol of all these other ideas that we’re talking about. In fact, in the poll — speaking of millennials — about a third of Americans — you know, I have to think of some interesting names for them — “the Responsibles” basically say that they’ve changed their lives and they’ve made essentially a kind of new social contract. They’re buying things that are greener; they’re buying things that have a sense of social responsibility. And this group is about 70 or 80 million Americans. They’re younger, they’re better educated, they’re more diverse. And what’s interesting is that, politically, you can’t shoehorn them in any particular ideology. They’re, in fact, a third liberal, a third conservative, and a third moderate, which is really interesting. So in some ways they’re a vanguard of this — of what Americans will be like 10, 20 or 30 years from now. I wonder if you could talk about this idea of is there kind of a new social contract that this group of Americans or Americans as a whole are embracing. The President: Well, I think this is a positive thing, and it speaks to something we’ve tried to express during the campaign — Washington hasn’t quite caught up to it yet — and that is that a traditional argument was between those who thought government could do everything and those who thought government shouldn’t do anything. And even the way you framed the description spoke a little to that old paradigm: liberal, moderate, conservative. My sense is what people are looking for now is a sense of responsibility and intentionality, in that your actions have consequences, and we want our government to be responsible. And one of the areas of concern that the public has right now is government spending. Even though we’ve had a disaster economically and I think we took some very important steps, people are understandably distressed about the size of the debt and deficits, because they’re saying to themselves that just doesn’t seem responsible. And I think after the long — we’re now experiencing the hangover after the long party over the last 10 to 15 years. You’re starting to see saving rates go up. In some ways that’s perceived as a conservative ethic, but it actually is just a responsible ethic, a sense of our actions have consequences, we have a responsibility to the next generation. The same is true on the environment; that we have to be thinking about what we’re doing to the climate, or what we’re doing to our air and our water. The same is true when it comes to our educational system; that we’ve got to make sure that our kids are turning off the TV set. And so the more we think in terms of are we doing everything that is within our power to affect good outcomes, and then expect responsibility from all our institutions — government, business, non-for-profit sector — then I think that’s a pretty good recipe for the continued success of the American experiment. And when people see a lack of responsibility — it’s part of the reason why people are furious about the bank bailouts — then they feel betrayed, particularly when they’re acting responsibly in their own lives. See pictures of Barack Obama’s college years. See pictures of Barack Obama on Flickr. Well, in fact, the working title of the poll is “The Responsibility Revolution,” that people are having the sense across all different parts of society. You mentioned the private sector. There have been studies that have shown that corporate philanthropy is down, corporate giving is down. Corporate social responsibility investment funds are up, but one of the consequences of corporate giving being down is that the non-profit sector, which depends on it so much, is being hurt. Is there anything that government can do to help that sort of leg of the stool, to help the kind of private sector of the corporate world become more involved in the non-profit sector? The President: Well, it’s not surprising that when you’ve had the worst recession since the Great Depression, that businesses are cutting back across the board, and that includes their philanthropic efforts. What that also means is it’s going to bounce back once businesses themselves bounce back. So I’m not so much worried about the long-term trends. I think that this is going to be a shorter-term phenomenon. I do think that it points to the limits of relying only on philanthropy for some core functions that have to be dealt with. We’re in the midst of a health care debate right now, and there was a story a couple of weeks back about the free health care that was provided on an annual basis in California, but they do the same thing in Virginia, where doctors and nurses all gather for three or four days; anybody can come and get health care, and there were just thousands of people showing up. That can’t be sort of an efficient, effective way for us to make sure that people have the care that they need. And so it goes back to making sure that we understand that all legs of the stool are important. Philanthropy is going to be important, and we want to encourage businesses in all sorts of ways to get involved. For example, I’ve been talking to my science advisor, John Holdren, about how we can really tap into businesses to improve science and technology and math education. And I am willing to bet that there isn’t a high-tech company out there — Google, Microsoft, what have you — that wouldn’t love to sponsor young people — and young girls in particular, who oftentimes are left out of the conversation on math and science education — to really boost them up. So here’s a targeted way that we can partner with the private sector on something that is directly related to their self-interest, which is having the highly skilled employees over the long term come in. But just as business is going to have a role, there are going to be some things that only government can do, and there will be some things that only individuals and parents can do themselves. And we can have the best science and math training programs in the world, the best sponsors in the world, but if parents aren’t telling their kids to turn off the video box and go do some work— Mrs. Obama: Which we say every day. (Laughter.) The President: Which we — we have great experience on this front, telling our kids to turn off the TV and the video games. Will you tell my sons to turn off the TV and video games? Mrs. Obama: Yes. And I’ll say, “The President of the United States —” Mrs. Obama: Put that in the article. The President: Absolutely. Mrs. Obama: Turn it off. Do your homework. (Laughter.) The President: School is about to start. Mrs. Obama: Right. See pictures of Barack Obama’s campaign behind the scenes. See pictures of Michelle Obama behind the scenes. Speaking of school is about to start — so this issue will come out actually on 9/11. And you have endorsed the idea that 9/11 should be a day of service rather than a day of mourning or a day of remembrance. The President: Well, not “rather than.” In addition to. The President: As an expression of. There’s been some controversy around that. Some Republicans have objected to that. Some of the 9/11 groups have. I just wonder whether you would speak to — kind of enunciate what that day really means now, going forward, in your view. The President: I wasn’t aware there was a controversy, so you just reported — I guess there’s always a controversy somewhere. I think that last year at 9/11— And by the way, we did our event — The President: No, I understand that. I think that — I went to Ground Zero with the Republican nominee to mourn and to remember. And I think that there’s no contradiction whatsoever in affirming the bonds that we have as a people as a way of recalling the sacrifices that were made that day and that continue to be made by members of our armed forces who are fighting in Afghanistan, and the military families that Michelle is working with. I’d be puzzled that there was a sense that those two things contradict each other. I think that’s exactly what brought us back from that tragedy. That’s the source of our resilience, is that even in the darkest of times we’re able to pull together and help each other. And that should be the spirit that infuses that day. Speaking of that day, one of the things that, in our poll, that had enormous resonance — and I think more than 80 percent of people across all of these categories supported — was the idea of a year of national service for young people, either post-high school, between high school and college, or sometime during high school that would either be civilian service or military service in exchange for an educational grant or scholarship. Now, they didn’t want government to make it mandatory; they wanted it to be voluntary. But I’m wondering, how do you feel about that? How do you both feel about that? And is there anything that the federal government can do — The President: Well, there are elements of that in our national service bill. Our national service bill provides additional opportunities for AmeriCorps, which Michelle can talk about; additional opportunities for the Peace Corps; additional opportunities for service for doctors who, rather than getting a specialty and making as much money as they can, that are willing to work in a rural community. So that’s been one of the working premises behind national service. It may not — I do think the American people are always concerned if you mandate something, so the national — Mrs. Obama: And there’s also a cost — The President: Right, it’s expensive. Mrs. Obama: I mean, would this administration love to see those numbers increase? I’d probably say yes. But there’s costs. And that gets back to responsibility — how much are we willing to spend as a nation to ensure that every single young person has an opportunity to do service in exchange for government-supported education is a wonderful idea. But you’d probably get some pushback on how much should be spent on it and what are the priorities and do we do it at this time. There may be a time for it, and it’s certainly, I think, something that seems to have a lot of bipartisan appeal — service and education. But it’s just a matter of prioritization right now. And the National Service Act represents an important, you know— The President: Down payment on it. Mrs. Obama: — down payment. Right, right. No, in fact, there’s a huge amount of support among Americans for it, and it actually speaks to this idea — one more question, I have to figure out what it is — this idea that there’s a kind of — some corporations talk about now kind of a double dividend, where there’s a profit motive, but it also does — gives back to the community. They use this phrase called, like, the triple bottom line, where there’s profitability, it’s good for the environment, and it’s good for the community. I’m wondering if you would talk just a little bit to that idea of that being this kind of new civic engagement that people have through what they buy, what they purchase, and the kind of choices, the consumer choices that they make. The President: Well, as I said, the — I do think that young people — this next generation is much more aware of the consequences of what they buy, what they use, what they drive. And that’s a wonderful thing. And our — all our individual choices, when you aggregate them, end up having a huge effect. And I think that this generation understands that more than our generation did and our parents’ generation did. But I do have to continually insist that there is a — there is a special benefit to society in the hands-on, face-to-face service of working at a soup kitchen or mentoring a child or visiting seniors in a nursing home that is irreplaceable. It not only is good for the person getting the service; it’s good for the person who’s giving the service. And there’s nothing new about that. That’s — that is something elemental about the human spirit is that — Mrs Obama: But it can also be something that is lost in this newer generation that’s — that gets more accustomed to doing things online — Facebooking, Twittering. You know, that’s something that I think we have to be mindful of, because technology is pushing things in the other direction. But it gets back to just the campaign as a model of what that can tap into. That’s what people felt. It wasn’t just the candidate, the confetti. It was also the fact that people could be in a room working together on a common mission, you know, you go to a rally and you’re reminded that there are more people than yourself who believe in a certain set of values, and it renews your faith in your neighbors. And it gets you into conversations that you don’t normally get into with one another that remind you that we have more in common than we — than we have — than not. Service does that. It puts you in a set of conversations with people that you otherwise wouldn’t talk to. One of the things that I loved most about the campaign was going to Iowa and going door to door and sitting at people’s kitchens talking to them in small settings about life and sharing dreams and our stories. That’s what service does. It’s, you know, that’s the indirect but very important outcome of community service is that it forces us out of our comfort zones and into one another’s lives in a series of conversations that remind us who we are and why we’re all here. And we’re all really pushing for the same thing in the end. We just tend to forget that. Service is a way to remind us on a daily basis what we’re working towards. Good. The President: Thanks, guys. Thank you so much.